Clare Muscutt talks with Kristin Haynes about human capabilities and the future of Employee Experience.
Episode #508 Show Notes:
Clare:
Welcome to the eighth episode of the fifth series of the Women in CX podcast; a series dedicated to real-talk conversations between women in Customer Experience. Listen in as we share our career stories, relive the moments that shaped us, and voice our opinions as loudly as we like about all manner of CX subjects. I'll be your host, Clare Muscutt, and in today's episode, I'll be talking to a remarkable community member from Australia.
Let me introduce you to today's inspiring guest. She's a seasoned CX executive, having headed up customer advocacy functions for some of the world's most recognised brands, including Vodafone, Telstra, and Suncorp, and is now the CEO of Senyah Projects; the business she founded to help businesses harness the power of their people to achieve their customer goals. Her focus is now on improving customer and employee advocacy, as an enabler for organisational growth. Please welcome to the show, CX sister, Kristin Haynes.
Clare:
Hi Kristin.
Kristin:
Hello Clare.
Clare:
How are you doing today?
Kristin:
Yeah, super good. Super good. It's about 8:00 PM here at night, so I'll be ready for my glass of red.
Clare:
Oh, nice. And whereabouts are you?
Kristin:
I'm in Sydney. We've had a gorgeous day here today, so yeah, we're well and truly into summer, which has felt like it's been a long time coming.
Clare:
I'm so jealous. It's the bleak mid-winter January in London. It's very grey and rainy and cold and frozen most of the time. So...
Kristin:
No. Well, we are- I think we started to think that early into December, we felt as though the rain was never going to go away, but come January, it seems to have come good.
Clare:
Amazing. Amazing. So let's jump straight in then! Anyway, I'm sure the listeners would love to know a little bit more about how you found your way into Women in CX, and what you've been doing and getting out of being part of our community so far.
Kristin:
Yeah, look... I love the community. I think I'm now a couple of years in and it's been fantastic. I suppose the catalyst for me getting involved with Women in CX, I'd probably fallen out of love with Customer Experience.
Clare:
I remember our first conversation.
Kristin:
Yeah, I'd been into CX for 15-odd years, and I'd led some great teams, and I'd worked with some great local brands and global brands. And I think I just got to a point where I knew why I got involved with CX, but I sort of felt as though I'd been pulled away from all the areas that I loved - namely being a customer advocate and being able to measurably improve the Customer Experience. I didn't feel I was doing that anymore, and I took a step back, and I went back to study after sort of 15 years in this area. I thought, ooh... I might look at some formal study just to make sure that I am doing all the right things.
Kristin:
And I went and I got my CCXP qualification, and that was again sort of an interesting process. And I was then sort of looking for...what's a group I can become involved with which is collaborative, which is going to bring together people from all different walks of life? And I was looking for something which sort of felt authentic, and I think that's probably the word that springs to mind when I think about Women in CX and the women whom I've had the privilege of engaging with.
Clare:
Yeah, it is a wonderful crew, isn't it? You've got two of our values in there, authentic and collaborative!
Kristin:
Yeah, they really are! And there are so many facets of what you've done; be it the webinars, be it the articles that people write. There's just the calibre of the people, who are all so accomplished in their individual fields. I've really enjoyed being a bit of a sponge, taking on board some fabulous tips and tricks along the way.
Clare:
Yeah. Well, it's been absolutely fabulous to have you, and thank you so much for all your contribution so far, and yeah, super excited to have this podcast. So, I'm sure the listeners want to hear more about this career journey that you went on. So you said, kind of told us about the point at which you fell out of love with Customer Experience a bit because, as we all do when we move into leadership, we get further and further away from the fun parts and more sitting in meetings and stuff, don't we?
Sponsor Message:
And now, for a quick word from one of our sponsors. We are proud to be supported by Kantar, the world's leading, evidence-based insight and consulting company. Kantar CX helps clients define Customer and Employee Experience strategies, better understand their customers via measurement, and in turn, improve business outcomes driving true commercial ROI. To find out more about Kantar's CX practice, please visit the sponsor links on the homepage of the Women in CX community. Now, back to the episode.
Clare:
What was your career journey? Where did you start and how have you ended up where you are today?
Kristin:
Yeah, look, all of my roles to date have really been with big brands, straight out of uni. I started with Coca-Cola and sort of started in a sales capacity, and found my way into marketing. I then went on to work with Goodman Fielder and a company called Maxim, who were the distributor for Jim Beam and Absolute Vodka. So, very early in my career I had great exposure to all these phenomenal brands, and I was probably about 25 when I joined Vodafone Australia. I ended up doing 10 years with Vodafone, of which half of those were in the field of Customer Experience. So I loved my years with Vodafone, they're an incredible company. They were sort of seen as the disruptor in the Australian marketplace.
Kristin:
And I loved that! It had a fantastic culture and a real energy about it and so, yeah, loved my time there. But I left Vodafone, and I went on and joined the competition, being Telstra, who was the number one player in town. A very different business, incredible history, a real legacy in the Australian market, and I really enjoyed my two years with Telstra. I then went on to News Corp, and so into media, which was a new industry. Again, in the field of Customer Experience and Employee Experience. And so after nearly four years with News Corp, I was offered the opportunity to get involved with stadiums and entertainment centres. And so I joined a business called Venues New South Wales, which was a government entity, and I was brought on as their Chief Customer Officer. An incredibly exciting time! We were in the process of launching a new stadium, which was the first in 20 years, the first since we'd opened the Sydney Olympic Park for the Olympics back in 2000. So yeah, it was a great time, and I loved my time with Venues.
Clare:
Wow. So FMCG, distribution, telecoms, media, events and stadiums and government services. Wow, that's an incredible set of experiences. What was one barrier or challenge you have had to overcome to become the woman that you are today?
Kristin:
Yeah, probably the most recent one, Clare. And I know you and I talk about this with the challenges of being a solopreneur. I think there are so many stages on that solopreneur journey where you find yourself going, 'oh my goodness, corporate is so much easier'! I understand that beast, I know how to navigate those corridors. I love the budgets available to do what I need to do. When you go out on your own you lose all of that infrastructure, you lose that backing. As you and I discussed, you often lose those sounding boards; those people who are able to say, 'actually, that's not a great idea'.
Kristin:
And then there are the practicalities of running the business. Learning, all of a sudden, you've gone from a salary appearing on the 15th of every month, to that level of uncertainty, and I think that's unsettling. So I think the greatest challenge you need to overcome, is that ability to stop doubting yourself and to be able to get back on the horse day in, day out. Some days are harder than others. Some days you take some real knocks and you think, 'I don't know if I'll get back up from this one', but you do, and you have to keep backing yourself. And I think that's probably been the biggest personal and professional challenge.
Clare:
Yeah. Just for context listeners, we had a little chat just before we started recording about some of the challenges of going from zero to year one, year one to year two, and into year three. And just saying, actually, it feels it just gets harder as things get bigger, things get more complicated. But, absolutely, the most resilience-building job I've ever done is being self-employed. But there definitely are those moments where I think, 'Oh! It'd be so much easier just to go back to corporate and have a full-time job where I go home at the end of the night.' And it's not my responsibility if the business fails or succeeds. But at the same time, there are a lot of reasons why I left corporate to do my own thing and be the master of my own Customer Experience, my own destiny, without any of the stakeholder challenges or differences of opinion. But it certainly is a set of trade-offs, isn't it? There's no perfect one and just being able to balance out which feels more rewarding. But yeah, I'm absolutely with you there. It's very much a character resilience building. And-
Kristin:
Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right! And I think the other thing too, which I love about it, and when we talk about sort of getting back on the horse and one of the things that I think sort of continues to inspire me, is some of the incredible people I've met along this journey. And I must say, just people who - again, it's that entrepreneurial mindset, it's the hustle, the fact that you don't know what's around the corner. So you've got to hustle. You've got to stay nimble. You've got to be open to opportunities that you never had to in corporate land. You were up to shut things down, you knew what was going to make money, you knew the ROI on every single thing that you did. There's a lot of uncertainty in our world. And I think part of the areas that I've just learned to love as I've gone along this journey, is just some of the incredible individuals who inspire me and keep me getting back up on those days where you think, 'Wow! This is hard'.
Clare:
Yeah, it's this adaptability, isn't it, to whatever comes? And I think that's probably one of the single biggest assets I now have; is to be able to master uncertainty with adaptability. To your point of backing yourself, needing to keep that belief that everything will turn out okay. As long as you continue to pursue the vision and make good decisions along the way, that line up with the values of what you set out to do, you can't really go wrong. Well, you probably can, but being able to believe that in yourself, and in your vision, and your own leadership. To be able to steer that course, and yes, and absolutely. And being part of our community and seeing all these incredible women who run their own businesses as solopreneurs, or as founders, and women that have grown their businesses into agencies, I find so much inspiration from those too.
Kristin:
And I think you need that, Clare. I think you need that nourishment. And that's, I think, certainly what the Women in CX community provides. It's that watering of the garden so that we can get up the next day and do it all again.
Clare:
Yeah. Keep getting back on that horse. Absolutely! So one of the amazing contributions you made to the community was recently coming and doing a webinar, would you tell the listeners a little bit more about what your webinar was about?
Kristin:
Yeah! Look, after I left Venues New South Wales, so I'd been with them for a couple of years, I was approached by a business called Capability Co. And this was probably my first interaction with the start-up. As I said with my career journey, I really only knew sort of big business and big brands. But Capability Co was doing something which, from day one, I was just so bought into. And what their basic premise is all about, is they partner with a body called the Institute for Working Futures. And the Institute for Working Futures has carried out a large body of research into what the future of work is going to be. There are a lot of unknowns. We've got the emergence of all these, all these new roles, they're actually called sort of new collar and green collar. And the fascinating thing is, at a very broad level, we, we know sort of what these roles are going to be, we know the green area-
Clare:
Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say for the listeners' benefit, do you want to explain new collar and green collar?
Kristin:
Yeah, absolutely! So, look, the new collar is really focused in this data analytics, AI, and machine learning. These are sort of not new roles, but I think we're really just on the cusp of what this could turn into. And that's the piece that we don't know. What's that evolution going to be? What are the roles that take AI and data analytics? What are they going to look like in five, in ten years? We don't know that, we've just got a little bit of a sense. And then we talk about green collar, and we talk about areas such as sustainability. And obviously, there's a real focus on social purpose and what businesses are doing to make sure that they are having a responsible footprint. And that they're being very mindful of their impact on communities and the people who work for them.
Kristin:
So I think we're seeing a change in potentially what the future of work is going to look like. And so the essence of what Capability Co are... I was going to say promoting, but I don't even think it's a promotion. The essence of what they are trying to educate businesses around, is the need to shift from a focus on jobs as capabilities, so jobs and your job title and what it is that you do. This has always been the focus. And for people like you and I Clare, who come from a corporate background, jobs are what gave us our identity. I think we're seeing a shift to more of...what are the innate human capabilities that are going to make us effective employees, effective solopreneurs, and effective founders?
Kristin:
What are those core human capabilities? And to give you an example of what we're talking about here, we're talking skills such as creativity, innovation, and then obviously close to both of our hearts, customer focus. And the idea is that regardless of the role that you find yourself in five or ten years’ time, these human capabilities, which also include leadership, these are going to be relevant regardless of what your job title is. And so Capability Co is working with a number of large corporates within Australia, and they're rolling out the Human Capability Standards. And this is ensuring that their people are going to be skilled for the workforce of tomorrow and it's super exciting. Super exciting!
Clare:
Yeah. Because I remember thinking when you did your webinar; 'we didn't get taught that stuff at school'. But does that mean that people will get taught the stuff it's called in Australia, in the future?
Kristin:
Well, we hope so! I think, at the moment, we're very much again on the cusp. And Capability Co is working with the sort of the corporate end of town, but they also have a really exciting trial underway with high schools. And this is about identifying, even at that high school level, what are your natural human capabilities. So if you think back to yourself, Clare, in year 10 at school-
Clare:
That was a long time ago!
Kristin:
But what were you sort of thinking about the future? No doubt you were sitting there going, oh God! I'm probably not great at science...I don't know if math is my thing. And so, you found yourself pigeonholed into this little box, where potentially you didn't know what the future looked liked, because there was this set curriculum that, you were sort of being pushed through. And you were going be spat out at the other end, with this nice little number, that apparently determines your future worth in the employment market.
Clare:
Yes. That's crazy!
Kristin:
And I think it just undervalues people. And so, again, I think what the Human Capability Standards do a great job of doing and I hope they will be able to do it for a number of 14 and 15-year-olds out there, who might be considering leaving school because they feel as though they don't fit - the Human Capability Standards are going to allow them to identify, are they natural leaders? Are they naturally creative? Are they naturally innovative? What are some of their core skills? And therefore, what might be the career path that they might take that will build on that sort of innate core capability?
Clare:
This is music to my ears because I was a girl with ADHD when it wasn't very well understood. And that traditional kind of learning approach; exams, coursework, traditional subjects, it was really difficult. And I think there was pressure to conform. So I was actually good at Science until A-level - it got very, very hard. But, if I could go back now, I wouldn't have chosen subjects, such as Physics and German, and these really kind of technically difficult, very deep learning subjects. If I could have done Business, if I could have done Psychology, if I could have done that kind of thing, I would've flourished for sure, but it wasn't the traditional path to get into a red-brick university. And I went a very squiggly way to a red-brick university in the end where I went to I failed my A-levels pretty much.
Clare:
I got one C in English Literature because I liked that, the other subjects I basically flunked. Well, I got really bad grades and I couldn't get into a red-brick university straight out of the bat. So, I ended up going to Equine College, and studying horses, because that was my passion. And that degree came with Business Management and Marketing, and I'd never done any of that at school or at college at the senior level. And I just discovered I had this real flair for learning about marketing. And eventually got a 2:1, and it got me into this red brick university - University of Birmingham - but it was not a straight path for me to do that. And I find it so amazing that if people are going to be educated and recognised for these innate human capabilities that aren't necessarily the traditional approaches to learning, I think it's going to open up the world for so many more neurodiverse people to succeed and be happier and feel more part of it, the nicer-
Kristin:
I couldn't agree more. Yes. And I think Clare - I mean your story, you had a lot of grit to go that squiggly path that you did. So many kids don't! And I think they become disillusioned and they drop out at year 10. They're not really sure what they're good at. And so I think that the Human Capability Standards will provide young people with some much-needed direction, and a little bit of hope that they do have these skills and therefore they can be successful in multiple different areas. And I think that's super exciting!
Clare:
Yeah. And it was white-collar, wasn't it? People who code and are working in that kind of space. Is that white collar that, what was the tradition?
Kristin:
Yes. Yeah. They are sort of the future white-collar roles. Yeah.
Clare:
Future white-collar roles, yeah. Because for me, I think there's something really important about gender dynamics there - because today only 12% of people that work in AI are women. So that kind of STEM developer/development, artificial intelligence stream, is still a very male-dominated industry. And I think for Customer Experience especially, we need to get more women working in that space because that is the way that Customer Experience of the future is also going. So again, heartened to hear that this is going to happen at the grassroots level, where there is a 50/50 balance before they get to the point of having to choose those subjects and choose careers. And hopefully, that helps to balance things out a bit more.
Kristin:
I hope so! And I think there is probably an equal mix of sort of, bottom up, with speaking to them at that school level, but also top down, at that corporate company level. And we are seeing a shift there too. Even in Australia, we've got one of our largest supermarket chains - Woolworths. They're spending 50 million dollars on putting over 60,000 of their employees through learning and development-focused programs, specifically centred around data analytics, AI and automation, because they're recognizing that these are the skills of the future. And so, ideally, we are going to address some of that gender gap through programs like that as well.
Clare:
Yeah, I loved Woolies! So, I used to work in a supermarket, so whenever I travelled, I'd always go and visit all the different supermarkets. But I really enjoyed Woolies and Coles, isn't it?
Kristin:
It is! Our two big guys!
Clare:
Yeah, amazing! So let's just dive a little bit deeper into this employee aspect then. So, you came up through Customer Experience. Now you are in a world where you're much more focused on employees and capabilities. What is your perspective on Employee Experience? What are the key, most important things to get right in that space?
Kristin:
Yeah, I think I was probably quite lucky in all of my respective Customer Experience roles. In that, they always had a cultural, employee experience component to them. So I consider myself quite lucky that in every role, my leader in the business got that we needed to connect our employees with the customer. And if employees didn't get it, and if employees weren't on the bus around the need to have a customer focus, then our Customer Experience efforts were never going to be successful. So accordingly, as part of my strategy, there was always a strong employee component. And look, even sometimes, that was a little bit removed from Customer Experience. During my time working with one of the large telcos, I led a program which was a coaching program.
Kristin:
So we put 500 of our most senior leaders in the business through a program which really had, two core objectives: teaching them to be vulnerable and to recognise the importance of coaching in their day-to-day roles. And then secondly, teaching them to be courageous and to have the tough conversations with people that sometimes they may have veered away from. And the view was, if our leaders in the business could show that vulnerability and be equally courageous, then they earned their right to be a leader. And I think that was quite a momentous program for this particular organisation. That was traditionally quite hierarchical, and people were simply in the top jobs because they were in the top jobs, and nobody questions whether they were effective as leaders.
Kristin:
This business, as I said, they turned that a bit on its head and it said - in order to be a leader in this business, you need to be an effective coach. And so I think that was a very powerful program. Which obviously had flow-on effects to a large number of employees in the business; who now felt that their dynamic with their leader was changed because their leader had now learnt these skills that some may have possessed before. Some didn't, but their leaders now had these skills which allowed them to be more effective leaders.
Clare:
Yeah. It is such an important skill as well, isn't it? And the transformation that can come from coaching others to find the answer for themselves, and the growth and development at all levels. When that is a skill that leaders possess, there's infinite possibility, isn't it? But, the traditional dominant command and control management approaches to leadership can be very stifling. And I think back to that earlier point, about how the younger generation are looking for different things from their experience of work. They're looking for opportunities where they can be themselves, be authentic, show up to work, be fully embraced. Unless the leaders within that business can role model that and show that, the top talent of the future is not going to stay with those businesses.
Kristin:
I think you're absolutely right. Yeah.
Clare:
Yeah. And I just- kind of- back to that gender dynamic thing again. It wouldn't be the Women in CX podcast if I don't talk about the female aspect! But women leaders tend to lead in a more collaborative way; where aspects such as coaching are more highly valued. There's a longer-term view of even learning and development versus, typically men - I'm not saying all men and women think this way - versus the research that suggests that there is a difference in how people think and lead at a senior level, is more short term for men. It's more focused on numbers, and it's more focused on delivering those numbers in the shorter term. So when it comes to investing in people, investing in capabilities and skills - I think there's probably no coincidence that a lot of the C-suite HR directors are actually women.
Kristin:
Yeah.
Clare:
And being able to get that through. So I think, kind of through the course of all this, it's being able to have that equal representation of women in those roles. That are going to affect the future in those leadership positions, which can ensure that the employee experience is one that the future generation and talent are going to be equally valued and be able to achieve their full potential. I just feel there's definitely a connection there.
Kristin:
Look, I do agree with you. I think too, and this is a good thing, when I look at some of the, what I call, new age companies, I'm probably not seeing the divide to the extent that I did in the kind of companies that you and I did our time with. So, without picking on, be it a Coca-Cola or a Telstra, these are large companies with a lot of history. And when you think about Employee Experience, you sort of think about the three levers that generally you have to pull; which are generally environmental, it's cultural.
Kristin:
And then we are looking at the tools. And are we giving the people the tools that they need to do the job we've asked them to do? I don't necessarily think those levers have changed. I think they're still the key levers. But I think the approach, that particularly these new companies are taking with respect to those three levers, that's where we're seeing a fundamental shift. So let's look at the environment one for a second. I think ten, or twenty years ago, a lot of big companies recognise that it was a good thing to have a nice office. And people want to have somewhere that's nice to go to. And so they built some big beautiful offices, and we had some lovely offices out there. I'm sort of fascinated by,- we have an exciting new office building going up in Sydney from Atlassian. So you'd be familiar with an Australian success story, which is the Atlassian boys in what they've created. So currently under construction is a $1 billion tower...
Clare:
An Atlassian tower!
Kristin:
Which is next level, and this really is a thing of beauty, and they were recently asked whether the project would still continue based on the degree to which they have embraced flexible working. And they really have a very clear principle, and they're open with all of their staff, that you do not need to be in the office. And so they were questioned around whether this $1 billion investment would still go ahead, in light of this flexibility policy. And their answer was very much that they want to cater to the different audiences within their business. They want to make sure that for those who want to come into the office; they have a beautiful office which encourages collaboration and innovative thinking and for those that want to work from home, well they can work from home.
Kristin:
So going back to this environmental lever - it's no longer this idea of 'let's create this space and everyone's now going to rock up at nine o'clock in the morning and we're going to have a nice space for them to work'. The idea is more about, we now recognise that all of our employees are different and for those who want to be in the office, haven't we got a fantastic space for you? For those of you who don't, what tools can we put around you that will allow you to be equally as effective?
Clare:
And there's a lot of work going on in workplace experience design now. I know a colleague...
Kristin:
Oh, massive!
Clare:
I think she's in Australia actually, Sue Lim, that's the speciality of her company now, is designing workplace experiences. From the building aspects and then interfacing with how does that work in an omnichannel service? I think it's fascinating that this is a world that we pioneered in Customer Experience, but is absolutely applicable now in Employee Experience, from a design point of view. And just a side point, I guess about this working-from-home thing. So I think, we were born in a generation where it was the office or nothing, right? So this working from home was a luxury and remote working or hybrid working, now, just makes total sense to us, doesn't it?
Clare:
But I've got a young team; they came straight out of university during the pandemic and came straight to work for me in a fully remote job role. They've never known anything different than that. They've never had that experience of working in an office. And I was talking to one of our younger members yesterday, who also graduated at that time, and went to work for a company in London. And she is so bored of working from home. She wants to be in the office environment. So I think, what you say about this Atlassian example, is totally true. It's being able to cater for the different needs of different people at different stages of their careers, of their lives. And the best companies will enable people to work however they want to work, and in whatever way best suits them, not the other way around. And there are undoubtedly benefits, for women especially, from being able to work from home and hybrid, in terms of their career development. Because if they don't have to leave early for things like school runs and get the bias that they encounter. I think it's a really powerful tool to enable more women to achieve even greater things with less bias.
Kristin:
I couldn't agree more!
Clare:
So lever number one is the environment. What was lever number two?
Kristin:
Well, that's the culture. So this is coming down to, what is the culture that we are going to create in this business of ours, which is going to allow people to thrive? And again, I think culture has always existed. I think the lens that was traditionally taken, is how can we create a culture that will allow people to achieve their KPIs. So it was more about the business. And what have we got to do? What policies have we got to put in place? What sort of frameworks? What are we going to do that allows someone to be effective in their role? I think when we look at culture now, we're seeing such a shift toward well-being and mental health and the programs that I'm seeing come out.
Kristin:
So I was a judge on the International Customer Experience Awards last year. And one of the categories that I was judging in was Employee Experience. And I was blown away by some of the initiatives that people are working on. And again, particularly in this startup space, so much innovation! I even look at some of our local success stories and what we are doing in this space. So we have a business out here called Safety Culture founded in 2004. They're now a billion-dollar business. I love Safety Culture, because the bloke who actually founded it was in Townsville where I did a little bit of time in far North Queensland!
Kristin:
But this business is such a success story. One of the things I love about it is when they talk about sort of employee benefits, and they have a great office set-up going back to the environment. And I love the fact that they create different rooms in their office which bring their customers to life. So i.e., they might have, for example, Toyota might be a customer, so here's their Toyota room. They might have New South Wales Transport as a customer; so here's their New South Wales Transport room. So again, going back to this idea of how can you create a space in which people find value and make them want to come into the office?
Kristin:
Then I think Safety Culture has done a phenomenal job. But the reason I highlight them, is again, speaking about sort of innovative practices and something as simple as leave. They offer leave to support victims of domestic violence. They offer leave for women who have suffered miscarriages. These are really innovative programs which, traditionally, this was not a space that corporates played in. I think even when you sort of put in for sick leave, the dropdown box to say what you actually were applying for was optional. It was a little bit of a sort of 'ask no questions, hear no lies'. I think the start-ups are doing a really good job of trying to be transparent and encourage people to bring their whole selves to the office.
Kristin:
And in turn, they're developing policies and procedures which reward someone bringing their whole self. And that includes if you are facing some mental health challenges. So, I think they're one example of a company that is setting the new benchmark around what, in particular, young people who might be new to the workforce. This in my mind is going to be the expectation. I think the likes of flexible working, again, it's going to become table stakes. I look at companies, another success story, again an Australian-based business called Indebted. And you'll love what they did, Clare, if you're not familiar with the business. They fundamentally overhauled the whole approach to debt collection. So if we think about the hideous images that spring to mind of a couple of heavies turning up on your doorstep and knocking, because you haven't paid such and such, Indebted's whole premise was sort of, injecting the human element into debt collection.
Kristin:
Understanding what was going on for people; using machine learning so that they could understand more about their customers. And they use tools, like WhatsApp and email, in order to be able to engage with customers. And funnily enough, they have nearly 90% of debts repaid without actually a person-to-person engagement. And again, incredibly successful company, but a hundred per cent remote workforce. As of last year, they introduced a four-day working week. Again, might not be for everyone, but the reason that they introduced it is because they said 'we've listened to our people'. A number of our people have said they're experiencing burnout. They haven't got the work-life balance that they want. So again, you told us, we listened, and this is now an option that we can put on the table. So again, I think we are going to see more and more of these, and I think it's probably easier as a start-up, you're able to get it right from the get-go. I think again, for these legacy companies, like a Sainsbury's, there are a lot of legacy processes and systems and it can make it very difficult to turn the ship. I think for a young company it is easier to get it right from the get-go.
Clare:
Yeah. Especially culture, and to change culture, is almost impossible if it's been there for a long time because it took such a long time to create in the first place in those big companies. I'm just conscious of the time now. We're almost out.
Kristin:
We are, we know how to chat Clare!
Clare:
We do, don't we?
Clare:
What was the third lever? So we've got environment, culture...
Kristin:
The third lever is tools.
Clare:
Tools. Right.
Kristin:
Okay. Absolutely. So are you, I think when we talk tools, I think you can look at the sort of the traditional tools of, are we allowing people to be effective in their roles? Again, if we talk about using Atlassian, they have their fabulous tool Jira, which took project management to a whole other level. I think there's that side, and technology has a role to play. But I also love when we talk tools, we've got a number of companies here in Australia, that offer their employees 12-month subscriptions to mindfulness apps. So, as someone Clare, I know you sort of mentioned, the importance of meditation in your world, how great is it that someone joining a company, they're offered the Calm app?
Clare:
Yeah, it's brilliant. It's brilliant! So that was an amazing conversation about human-centric businesses. I think the thing that's overlapped throughout all these parts of our conversation, has been about how it's not just about Customer/Employee Experience in the future, it's about the human experience and those businesses that really understand people, whether that's from a customer, employee or stakeholder point of view, are the ones that are going to be best placed to succeed. And managing the three key levers of culture, environment and tools for their people within the organisation, no doubt with that customer focus, it's going to be a much better world. And fantastic to hear how Australia is leading the way. I'm definitely going to dig more into that Atlassian case study! So just in final words, is there one piece of advice or a key takeaway you'd like to leave the Women in CX podcast listeners with today, Kristin?
Kristin:
I'd love to see more and more women taking up the Customer Experience mantle. And if there's one thing that I've sort of learned over the last two years, since running the customer-focused program, and often I'll have 200 people on a masterclass, none of them come from a Customer Experience background! But I love the fact that they get to the end of it and they say, 'oh, this is fabulous, I can make a real difference here' and 'I never thought about Customer Experience as a career'. So, I think for anyone listening on the call, and who isn't already operating in a CX or an EX-capacity, by no means underestimate the journey that you've been on and the value that you can add in this space. Because my experience has certainly taught me, that it's from people from all walks of life and a mixture of different disciplines, who really are making a difference in this space!
Clare:
Love it! Well, thank you so much to Kristin for coming to the podcast today. It's been amazing to hang out with you. I've really enjoyed this and been left with lots of thoughts about the future of diverse and inclusive workspaces being driven as a result of this human capability point of view. So thank you!
Kristin:
Absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me!
Clare:
Bye for now. Bye, everyone!
Kristin:
Bye.
Clare:
Thanks for listening to the Women in CX podcast with me, Clare Muscutt. If you enjoyed the show, please drop a like, subscribe, and leave a review on whichever platform you're listening or watching on. And if you want to know more about becoming a member of the world's first online community for Women in Customer Experience, please check out www.womenincx.community. Join us again next time when I'll be talking to one of our community members from the United States about brands, marketing, and the holistic view of Customer Experience. See you again soon!
